When in DMAIC to use 5 Whys

Never say never.. after all how do you know you find the problem in define to begin with. There is no step in DMAIC that can not be helped by another step.

Pete,
There is an inherent problem in restricting the use of any tool to any step in the DMAIC process. Once you do that you start getting the mindless execution of tools (tool zombies) without any understanding of what you want to know and what tool shows you that information.
If you can simply understand the point of each step of the DMAIC process and answer two questions it will lead you to correct tool – regardless of what step you are in:
1. what is a defect?
2. how do I measure that defect?
5 whys are just like fishbone diagrams, C&E matrix, brainstorming it is predominately opinion based. Most of what you get needs to be validated with data.
Just my opinion.
Good luck

Pete – it seems you have read the responses, but
not actually taken them in. So, I guess my post
just repeats what the other guys have already
suggested.It doesn’t really matter where you use 5 whys or
fishbone diagrams etc – use them wherever it suits
the specific project best.You are only constraining yourself, and therefore
those who are within the GB curriculum by trying to
place tools into specific buckets. If it helps – try to think of DMAIC as a flow,
rather than batches. That way, the phases become
less critically defined, and whether 5 whys falls
into Measure or Analyse doesn’t matter as much.Can I also suggest that your approach may not be to
try to ‘teach DMAIC’ – but that you get the GB
candidates together in a team, and work through a
real genuine problem – using tools wherever they
are appropriate.Davy T

They fit best in the curriculum at the first place one might use them. Kinda hard to come to a place where they are of benefit yet one learns them later in the training…ya think?

Ron,I purposely stayed way from the usefulness of some of these tools mentioned based on what I teach and use now.. didn’t want to market blatantly. It was nice to see someone else discuss when to use these tools to help come up with solutions and when they are not effective.The point he seems to miss is that defining the problem is not as simple as voting and brainstorming if you do not have the data or understand the process. The point being understanding the DMAIC steps and what their goal is. While it is okay in intro knowledge to see basic examples of how to use some tools during a step, people fail to see what is set in stone and what is not. It is like giving someone a calculator, show them how to press some buttons and get something and then not know what the numbers truly measure.

Robert S,
Happens all the time. MSA in Measure Phase uses ANOVA and ANOVA doesn’t get taught until Improve Phase.

Just my comments,
 
There is a lot of good inputs to Petes question and I am not arguing that there are a lot of ”tool zombies” out there. This is a common problem in the beginning of a VBLSS career when the person is quite insecure and need guidance. Then it is easy to look at the road map and identify some tools in each phase and trying to create a good project based on that.
This is of course not the right way to go, which make the MBB role very important in order to guide and help each Black Belt candidate (or Green Belt candidate).
 
I want to raise the question what would happen during a Black Belt training if we do not follow the DMAIC phases? Mike Carnell said it very well when he stated that there is two question we always need to be able to answer and will lead us to the correct tool.
However, we still need to teach the tools and therefore I would say one can put tools under a certain phase. But as I mentioned earlier, it is extremely important that the MBBs explain what has been said regarding Petes question. You should use the tools due to the situation and problem, not based on where we are in the DMAIC process.
 
If I were the one to answer your question Pete, I would put Fishbone (which is a way of structure your 5 whys) in the analyse phase. BUT, during training really emphasize that each tool in NOT limited to the specific DMAIC step.

Chris,
we have touched on this a couple times in the past and it typically goes to the actual working knowledge of the instructor for the class. You can teach DMAIC a couple ways. You can use DMAIC to teach tools which typically leaves that link in peoples heads that if I am using this tool I must be in __X__ Phase. The other way is to use the tools to explain the DMAIC methodology so that the focus is on understanding the intent of the phase and how the tool provides the information. That creates a better understood relationship between the tool and the information rather than the tool and the Phase.
Just my opinion

Well, that doesn’t make much sense then does it? How much more rudimentary can a concept be that you must teach how to use something at the time it is intended to be used.

Robert S,
That would be one way to look at it. If I agreed with you I would have to be pretty stupid to keep doing it that way so obviously we seem to have been able to make it work. It was done that way the entire time you were at Qualtec. 
We were doing Executive training at Emerson Electric and had a guy that no matter what was said always need a deeper explaination. Jim Athon was teaching the section (amazingly enough on MSA) and asked the guy why he needed to understand some particular detail. The guy said he could understand anything unless he understood all the detail. Jim’s response was “I don’t understand how fuel injection works but I know how to drive a car.”
Basically with Minitab doing the analysis you teach people to read the output and how to interpret it. They get how the analysis is done later. Not a big issue so the answer to your question is yes it does make sense.
Just my opinion

But Mike, you changed the rules re: ANOVA. If all you need to know is to click a tab in Minitab, then, yes, that’s all you need to teach… because, by definition, that’s all they need to know. I thought your first post implied they needed to understand ANOVA in Measure, as part of MSA, but it wasn’t taught until Analyze. Are we playing word games?

I do not disagree with you Chris. I am surprised you got that from my post. What I am saying and what I use in my teaching is to follow the DMAIC roadmap where the tools are to be found under each phase. With that said I once again say that a huge responsibility lays on the MBB in order to make the students to understand that the tools can and should be used when they can contribute to the success of the project and not depending on which phase we are. When I teach I try to use examples how I used the tools in different phases and I not mention the examples in Analyze phase when we are in Measure for example, I think it is more powerful to keep getting back to the tools.
We probably think different but I do not think it is a problem that a specific tool is mentioned under a specific phase where it most often is used.

Robrt S,
ANOVA is first used in Measure. The tool is taught in Analyze. Pretty straight forward.

Robert S,
Let’s hope he understands he doesn’t need to put them anywhere except in his head.
Just my opinion.

Robert S,
I can live with the fact that you didn’t get it.
As far as what you are sure of? It doesn’t really make me any difference.

Pete,
You ever feel like you have one foot nailed to the ground and are running around in circles? I would like to change your focus and while this may seem unorthodox to some, I want you to focus on what you expect your Greenbelts to do. This will guide you as to what you need to teach.1. Will they be defining their own projects… caution here unless you have checks put in place to check their choice2. Will they be setting their own baseline metrics?3. How will they analyze their defined problem? 4. Who will develop the improvements (or corrective actions)? 5. Will they be facilitating a team or will it be only changes in their own department?6. What role will they play in the control phase?7. Will they be working their own project or be working in groups?8. What is the role of the BB or MBB in mentoring? I will not lecture on this one.The point being… what is the task? What do they need general knowledge on? What will they be doing by themselves? How will they be tested? How do you know you did a good job training? Has it impacted the business positively (caution.. do not mass train unless you have a reason and a controlled purpose)Hope this prevents running in circles again! Look of ADDIE or DACUM/AMOD for more general knowledge concerning training.

Chris:
“With that said I once again say that a huge responsibility lays on the MBB in order to make the students to understand that the tools can and should be used when they can contribute to the success of the project and not depending on which phase we are”
I think we have the same oppinon, but my exprience is that it is beneficial to have a LSS roadmap as an overview, specially if VBLSS is something new for the person.
BUT, I am on your side, the tools should be used due to the situation in the project and not due to a specific phase.