iSixSigma

Why QC is non Value Activity

Six Sigma – iSixSigma Forums Old Forums General Why QC is non Value Activity

Viewing 47 posts - 1 through 47 (of 47 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #39909

    Fiona
    Participant

    Does anybody have any printed matter on why QC/Inspection is considered non value activity

    0
    #122561

    Andy P
    Participant

    If the customer dosen’t pay for it, then it is non-value added.

    0
    #122568

    Mikel
    Member

    Even if the customer paid for it, it would not be value added.
    I think you both need to go read the definition of value added before posting again. Neither of you have a clue what it means.

    0
    #122572

    Darth
    Participant

    Come on Stan, help them out a little.  Value added activity usually is described as having three criteria; must be important to the customer, must change the nature of the “thing” and must be done right the first time.  Qc/inspection fail the last two therefore it can be described as nonvalue added.  There are some that have added the issue of business value added or value enabling.  These encompass the stupid stuff business has to do but is irrelevant to the customer.  It is intended to make those doing non value added activities feel better about themselves.

    0
    #122580

    human Factors Chris
    Participant

    You can’t forget non-valued but necessary, like FAA regulatory requirements when building and aircraft.  Somethimes they are a required evil, kind of like needing the darkside.
    Chris

    0
    #122584

    Andy P
    Participant

    Well done Stan on another value added reply.

    0
    #122589

    Mikel
    Member

    No problem.
    I specialize in pointing out when people post with no knowledge. Let me know when you need it pointed out again.

    0
    #122591

    Ron
    Member

    The topic is always controversial, however, if you stick with the classic definition of what constitutes NVA most employees of any organization are considered non value added.
    The key are the three items already pointed out 1) Customer is willing to pay for it, 2) It someohow changes the product or service going through the process, 3)It is done right the first time. YOU MUST MEET ALL THREE OF THESE CRITERIA not just any one of them.
    The follow up to this is the classifications of NVA, Required NVA is where most of the quality personnel reside as this is a regulation or requirement of the customer or government, or that the inherent quality of the product or service is so poor that you must have this do meet customer requirements.
    It is the Pure Waste or non-required NVA that is particularly onerous to most organizations.
     
    Sarbanes Oxley requirements are a goodexample.

    0
    #122598

    Alvarez
    Participant

    In first:
    The main waste in companies are the great quantity of people, like you stan, that are  speaking all day about VA or NVA.
    The customer no think about what part of the product final price must be paid or not, a little bit common sense please.
    The smart customer decitions are based only in price + funtionality = satisfaction, and this is only a Question of
    PP RR OO DD UU CC TT II VV II TT YY
    (Productivity includes: Quantity  – Quality).
     
     
     

    0
    #122601

    human Factors Chris
    Participant

    Alvarez,
     
    Hostile today aren’t we? The point of NVA and VA is to assess what can be eliminated. Why spend money as a company on something the customer does not care about and adds no value to the product?  You could have the best product in the world (very happy customer) and sell it at the customer requested price (a happier customer), but your overhead is so high you just break even. Assign items to certain categories, and assess whether NVA are required items and a necessary evil. Then reduce or eliminate the others. Who cares what you call them as long as you understand what they really represent….I don’t think you got the “big picture” yet.
    Chris
     

    0
    #122602

    Alvarez
    Participant

    Dear frind,
    Renault don’t break his head thinking about customer think to need.
    Renault create and modelize the customer needs.(Renault Megane rear side)
    That is create value, where before there was nothing.
    Do you have the picture ?
     

    0
    #122615

    Thai
    Participant

    Alvarez,
    I think you are still missing the point about Value Add and Non-value add.  There is a difference about adding value to a product in the form of new function or features and VA/NVA steps in a process. 
    A simple view of this is the paint room in an automotive assembly plant.   Painting a vehicle would be consided by most people to be value add.  Customers expect that their vehicle is painted and sometimes they pay extra for a particular type of paint job. 
    However the physical act of inspecting the paint job for defects (scratches, pits, thin spots, etc) at the factory is non-value add.  The customer is likely not willing to pay for the inspection.  They would expect the car to be painted the correct way the first time. 
    Kirk

    0
    #122617

    human Factors Chris
    Participant

    Another analogy closer to home, I have grown to expect that English is a third language in your postings. Therefore value is added every time I read it. You have removed the non-value added task of spell check because it is not a specification requirement and I would not enjoy your posts as the customer if you did. I hope this helps.
    Chris
     

    0
    #122620

    Mikel
    Member

    The only time I think about NVA is when some idiot wants to debate what it means

    0
    #122623

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Andy,
    I have a problem with the definition being tied to the end customer and what they are willing to pay for.
    In mining safety is a serious issue. Our customers are the employees and the families of the employees. They have a right to believe that when they go to work they will return alive and unharmed and their families have exactly the same right. We spend large amounts of money on safety and at no point would I ever consider it NVA, it is a moral responsibility.
    I think we have similar issues around environmental compliance, health and community relations. All of these processes can be done with efficiency so there are NVA components to those processes.
    Just my opinion.
    Good luck

    0
    #122628

    UFO
    Member

    Senior Carnell: Seems you have a problem with
    everthing except your own answers. Now you are a
    mining expert! What next, a surgeon?

    0
    #122629

    Mikel
    Member

    UFO, you seem to have a problem with correct answers.

    0
    #122630

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    UFO,
    My customers for the last 3 years have been mining companies – BHP and Lonmin. I am not an expert at mining but it doesn’t take very long to be on a mining site to realize that fatalities and injuries are a moral obligation.
    As of yet no surgical customes.
    So what seems to be your particular problem? You got a decent response on your other post and had a problem with that. Maybe you have the two of us confused.

    0
    #122631

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Stan,
    UFO doesn’t appear to be to stable.

    0
    #122632

    Tyrone P. Belmonte III, ssbb
    Member

    I don’t understand all of this talk about sturgeons anyway.   
     
    We’ve run through trout, catfish, salmon, and a few sharks on the forum and it finally looked like we were past the fish and onto really important things like who first said Six Sigma, is Six Sigma really just TQM, what’s the deal with that 1.5 sigma shift, can you perform a gage R&R with no gages, did you hear that Six Sigma’s going to die – soon, will someone please explain statistics to me again, does management have to buy-in for Six Sigma to work, is Dr. Scott really a doctor, is Darth really Stan, is Mike Carnell the only one who has really managed a SS deployment, does that Phil guy really work at Home Depot, why is Stan so mean to me, and has BTDT really been there and done that or is he another well versed academic dreamer living a secret Walter Mitty Six Sigma life?  
     On second thought let’s stick with the fish.   How about those Synodontis Nigromaculatus?

    0
    #122633

    human Factors Chris
    Participant

    This is a real “synodontis nigromaculatus”.

    0
    #122634

    human Factors Chris
    Participant

    This is a real “synodontis nigromaculatus”.

    0
    #122635

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    TPB III,
    Surgeons? You’ll have to ask UFO he brought them up.
    Dr. Scot is really a Dr. as is Darth and BTDT.
    Darth and Stan are two different people.
    BTDT has Been a lot of places and done a lot of stuff.
    Stan has managed as many deployments as I have so the answer to the question about me is no.
    I don’t know Phil or Vinny beyond the Discussion Forum.
    Fishing can be more interesting. I am willing to discuss it.
    Regards.

    0
    #122636

    Alvarez
    Participant

    Dear Kirk,
    I do not accept any kind of lesson about VA or NVA
    The client only expect that the car be correctly painted when he gets the product, he don´t mind about the industrial process, you know?
    A cuestión,  put an screw in an assembly, (148 TMU), is a VA or NVA step in the process???, I’ll wait for your response.

    0
    #122637

    human Factors Chris
    Participant

    I give up…he just don’t get it. Deep sea or fresh water fishing?
    Chris

    0
    #122638

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    He flat out said he wouldn’t listen. You’re pushin’ a rope on this one.
    Saltwater fly fishing. Preferably site fishing. I’m no good at it but I like doing it.

    0
    #122639

    Mikel
    Member

    Dumb and proud of it, eh?
    Yes, the screw in the assembly is VA

    0
    #122640

    human Factors Chris
    Participant

    Deep see fishing for me. Cruise fifty miles of of any coast, open a beer, throw some chum into the water, and pull up what bites. Some of the things you pull up are as scary as some of these posts, but it’s fun.

    0
    #122641

    human Factors Chris
    Participant

    What about the nut behind the screw?

    0
    #122642

    Mikel
    Member

    I’d rather go 3 miles out and go on the gulf stream side of a reef – jump in the water and go shoot a grouper – the heck with waiting for a fish!

    0
    #122676

    Adam Bowden
    Participant

    Mike,
    Some interesting posts today !!!!
    Can you drop me a line tomorrow – e-mail or by phone.
    Best regards,
    Adam

    0
    #122678

    Mike Chad
    Participant

    UFO,
    Why is it that everytime a read one of you’re posts you are intent in slagging everyone off?

    0
    #122688

    Thai
    Participant

    Alvarez,
    Putting a screw in an assembly is value add.  Having a downstream inspection to make sure the screw was put into the assembly is non-value add.
    From a practical point of view, classifying something as VA or NVA is pretty much a NVA activity in my opinion.  However from a teaching point of view this type of classification allows people to begin to see waste in systems and processes.
    Kirk 

    0
    #122720

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    human Factors Chris,
    I am not opposed to that either particularly the lounging in the back of a nice boat and doing a few beers. I like the any coast part as long as it is in the little latitudes.
    Unfortunately after the ISSSP conference I have done the Personality Index (PI) and discover I am a type A and the lounging part doesn’t last long.
    Actually Stan tested similarly and you can see his response.
    Regards

    0
    #122721

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    Mike,
    I know I will end up regreting this post but it is most likely because UPO has transcended NVA but necessary to NVA and has now become inert.
    Just my opinion.
    Regards

    0
    #122724

    human Factors Chris
    Participant

    ….but the deckhands clean the fish for me and everything.
    Chris

    0
    #122726

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    HFC,
    Next time you go check with the restaurant in your hotel. Most of the time they will cook it for you that night (they keep what they don’t serve you).
    Regards

    0
    #122727

    HF Chris
    Participant

    Problem is that I got kicked out the last time I fished the Koi out of the pretty fish tank next to bar…same problem at Red Lobster too.  Looks like UFO can’t get past (N-1) df.
    Chris

    0
    #122729

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    HF Chris,
    They will do that.
    Last time we were in Key West with Rod Howes, he got kicked out of Sloppy Joes (where Hemingway used to drink). You have to watch hanging out with the Aussies they can be a rowdy crowd.
    I have avoided the stuff by UFO (opted for a nice long phone conversation with Adam Bowden instead – much more intersting and he actually knows the business). There doesn’t seem to be an upside for anyone involved a conversation with UFO.
    Regards
     

    0
    #122739

    UFO
    Member

    To: CarnellFrom: UFOOf course there doesn’t seem to be an upside for anyone involved a conversation with UFO.  You are obviously just another consulting that knows little more about statistics than a few of the common tools, how to put numbers into software and how to make first-order interpretations.  This is very evident after reviewing a number of your posts.  Wise move sidestepping an encounter with me. 

    0
    #122811

    Mike Carnell
    Participant

    UFO,
    My apologies for missing this sniveling until now but you really aren’t on my radar screen at all.
    I am not in the statistics business and neither is anyone involved in Six Sigma. It is a results business which you evidently do not understand. Just as any other business the customer defines the product they wish to buy. You can continue to pound your chest on what a great statistician you think you are. Next time you ink a contract with a customer to deliver Six Sigma Equations let us know – that isn’t the product that companies are interested in. I will continue to deliver results and book return business with previous customers.
    As far as “sidestepping you” you might not want to take that to literally. It works on the Discussion Forum because as I posted earlier you have transcended NVA to inert.
    Your big play around the “mining expert” comment demonstrated you ignorance – actually stupidity – and you seem to be making a career out of it with others.

    0
    #122813

    Matson
    Participant

    In my world a third classification exists called BVA. (Business Value Added) This would apply to areas such as safety in industrial applications or Sarbanes Oxley in the finance world. Does not add or change anything and customer not willing to pay but it has to be done.
    Bruce
     

    0
    #122814

    Adam L Bowden
    Participant

    You obviously don’t know Carnell !!!

    0
    #144335

    JR
    Participant

    It seems that this whole discussion is NVA.

    0
    #144359

    Joe Perito
    Participant

    I don’t buy the concept that Manufacturing is the only department that makes money for a company….and I don’t buy the concept that QA/QC is non value added activities.
    I realize these notions are six sigma based and accounting based concepts and are trying to make people think in terms of how money is generated and how you can track in on a piece of paper (or electronically).  I propose that people (especially Quality professionsals) should take greater pride in their profession and a more realistic view of the market.  You can not get, or keep a customer without having a quality product.  Quality requires planning, inspection, control, tracking, effort, and people focused on quality to help sell a product.  I see Quality as an essential tool in the production line just the same as the metal stamping press is essential in making car parts.  Yes, I understand the jargon, but as long as Quality professionals accept this type of language, the Quality profession will always be struggling to get Management to accept it as a necessary part of the business and to support it as an essential tool.   I offer as proof the US’ loss of the home electronics market and a large part of the automotive market.  I suggest that Phil Crosby was only half right when he suggested that “Quality is Free”.  Actually, QUALITY MAKES MONEY, just as an effective Purchasing Department does, Maintenance does with their repair and PM programs, Safety does by reducing hazards and educating people, etc.  All these “TOOLS” make money for the ORGANIZATION and prodies the customer with VALUE just like the stamping press does.  Just try to run a business or satisfy a customer without any of these TOOLS.  We need to develop a better (and more realistic) idea of what “value added” means.
     

    0
    #144362

    Sah
    Member

    Joe, absolutely agree. your rationale is correct. if someone think different, try to run an organizaztion without qc.

    0
    #144380

    FL
    Participant

    In an unstable process condition, “Inspection” do help to reduce chance of defective parts being ship to the customer. However, in an stable process condition, I don’t see “Inspection” provide any value added to the manufacturer nor the consumer. “Quality Control” is a discipline should cultivate in everybody’s mind. It is everybody’s responsibility to control the quality of work. Basically, we don’t need a 3rd party to perform an inspection on your job if we can do it right the first time. I am a manufacturer…. to me, QA or QC is a “Cost”
    In my cost reduction program, 1st thing I did was stable the line, 2nd was remove all the inspection gate and remove all the QC head count…

    0
Viewing 47 posts - 1 through 47 (of 47 total)

The forum ‘General’ is closed to new topics and replies.