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Y = taste. How will I measure it?

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  • #39089

    Deep
    Participant

    Hi all:
    I am planning to do a DOE in cooking. We cook Chicken once in a while and sometimes it turns out good, but not always. We know that the different seasoning that we put makes this variation. We wanted to find out the right amount of seasoning to make good chicken dish always.
    Could anyone tell me how I will quantify taste? The only output that I am concern is the taste, but how will I quantify this?
    Any ideas
    Thanks in advance.
    Deep

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    #118113

    Dayton
    Member

    Send me the fully and hygienically cooked chicken in a warm, clean, fresh, lightly and consistently seasoned state and I will rate the chicken using a 1 – 7 Likert scale with 1 being very bad and 7 being very good.  
     
    I am objective, have eaten chicken for years and enjoy culinary research. 
     
    Due to my having a clinical background I can assure a double blinded study as I will be wearing both dark Wayfarer and Aviator style sunglasses while yelling out taste results to my children as they record sample number, rating and dive for scraps.
     Vinny

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    #118114

    Deep
    Participant

    Vinny:
    But how useful that information will be? i mean the Y will be attribute right? I dont know this attribute Y will give us a what we need.
    Is there anyway that you can think to make it continuous.?
     

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    #118115

    Dayton
    Member

    Taste is subjective.  I’d think that you’d want to establish an assessment criteria, assure the assigned taster understands and can respond to the criteria, have a rating structure (such as a Likert scale) against which to apply the assessment criteria on a taste sample basis, determine your preparation and cooking variables, cook the chicken, taste the chicken and record results.  
    It would make a neat fractional factorial DOE as you established and controlled your variables and determined your test ratings.  Double blinding your study might be a bit over the top for what you are doing but it would be important that the taster did not know the variable composite of the sample under taste test in order to avoid the inevitable bias associated with paprika. 
    Vinny

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    #118116

    Whitehurst
    Participant

    I dont know how would like the idea of rating the taste for example 1,2,3 for good,medium,bad.just a suggestion.
     

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    #118117

    Ray Morgan
    Participant

    I think the “X”s for taste would be the 4 distinct flavors the human tongue can detect: salt, sweet, sour and bitter.  I’d start there.
    Quantifying each separately would be the challenge…I’d start with an effectivness study with some talented tasters involved.
    Good luck,
    Ray

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    #118118

    Dayton
    Member

    It really depends on how much granularity Deep needs in his taste assessment.   1 – 3 does not give the potential for response specificity that a 1 – 7 scale does.
    But if he’s OK with me eating a lot of his chicken and just using a 1 – 3 scale, I’m OK with it.    It would certainly be easier for me to remember.
    Vinny

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    #118119

    Dayton
    Member

    Now wait a minute buddy.  While I like your thoughts regarding taste distinctions – I’m eating – sorry, I mean “tasting” the chicken.   
    I have already estalished that I have a clinical background, have eaten chicken for years, enjoy culinary research, and have a couple of hungry kids… 
    Deep, don’t listen to him….. except maybe about the taste distinctions.
    Your pal,
    Vinny

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    #118120

    Deep
    Participant

    Thanks for the replies,
    I think i will make a 1-7 scale. Now i have to do a little research on how to analyze attribute Y.
    Thanks once again for the comments

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    #118121

    Been There, Done That
    Participant

    When we were training in France, we had one engineer who refused to do the DOE exercise we had planned. His objection was that it did not apply to what he did.
    I opened up my copy of Montgomery (Design and Analysis of Experiments, 4th ed. p. 428) and used the data from a DOE conducted for making Pinot Noir in California (1985 vintage). The results were scored by forced ranking on a scale of 1-16 by five tasters. Bernard, who was a great oenophile and amateur wine maker, took to the data analysis with great enthusiasm.
    His analysis showed that the gauge R&R on tasting and rating was too noisy to accurately evaluate the results of the experiment. His other conclusion was that we should all do some more field trials later in the week and attempted to use the SQRT(n) factor to increase the signal/noise ratio.
    We don’t expect to complete the testing for years.
    BTDT

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    #118122

    Dayton
    Member

    I think I know where you are heading with this.   With the chicken and wine together I sense a great multivariate assessment in the works.   Good thinking.
    Vinny

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    #118123

    BTDT
    Participant

    We were seeing double – multivariate by any other name
    ;) BTDT

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    #118127

    Deep
    Participant

    So you guys are saying it might not be possible or it will be very difficult to quantify taste??

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    #118129

    BTDT
    Participant

    Deep:Tasting and smelling are very difficult to reproduce and control. Perfume companies pay superstar wages to their ‘noses’ – professional odour consultants. It is quite possible to quantify taste, but it has to be done very carefully because the Gauge R&R is so large.
    I toured a food research facility and looked at the way they conduct their tests.
    – They are administered with a double blind setup.
    – Dishes and evaluation forms are passed to evaluaters through small doors.
    – Dishes are white.
    – Lighting is standardized and may be altered according to the circumstances.
    – Ventilation of the tasting area is critical.
    – Evaluators are forbidden to discuss results.
    – Evaluators are forbidden to smoke.
    – Pieces of meat are all the same cut.
    – Chewing technique is standardized.
    – The order of test and control samples is randomized.
    I was discussing the use of comparitive scales rather than absolute scales to identify the fine nuances of taste.
    Like most gauge R&R studies, you first have to define the range of results you must be able to distinguish (USL and LSL).
    BTDT

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    #118130

    Dayton
    Member

    No, not saying it’s too difficult to do.  I was just hungry – it’s almost lunchtime.   While taste is somewhat subjective I believe that you can find tasters that are in a normative range.   Before you begin your taste testing not only would you want to set criteria and a rating system, you’d want to evaluate and calibrate your tasters with calibration samples to assure consistency.  None of this seems particularly difficult or easy.  
    Why don’t you setup your study and begin the process of test protocol structure and basically do some engineering studies and determine whether or not at that point it’s feasible and of value to you.  I think that’s what I’d do.  Try to set it up, get everything in place, do trial runs, and give it a shot.   You are not going to get practical step-by-step guidance from folks on this forum.   If you want to challenge your rational or poke at your statistics that’s when to throw something out for comment.  You are at ground level on this and have to make it work – I’m just poking some at what you are doing and thinking more and more about going down and getting a chicken sandwich.
    Vinny

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    #118133

    Deep
    Participant

    Let me do the initial study and will get back to you guys
    Thanks a lot for the comments
    Deeep

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    #118134

    walden
    Participant

    Just curious about you initial study, what variables are you going to control for: Same oven, same type of pan, same temp and length of cook time, free range chicken, whole chicken, cut up chicken, freshly packed chicken. There are a lot more variables than just changing ingredients, not mentioning the order in which the ingredients are mixed and whether it’s a chemical change or just a solution,  refer to the classic “Tea” study of milk first ot tea first. These are just some items you need to consider if you want “value” in your study.
    Chris
     

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    #118135

    Deep
    Participant

    Chris;
    thanks for the inputs. As far the variables you mentioned, we will control all those. same chicken all the time, coming from the same place, cutting by same guy etc, etc. From our past experience we know that the most important variable that effect the “taste” are the seasoning that we put when we make chicken. That is why we are planing to concentrate on those variables.
    thanks anyways
    Deep

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    #118139

    Thai
    Participant

    Are you changing the composition of the seasoning as part of the DOE or is it remaining constant.  If you are changing the composition, you may want to setup a Mixtures design (Simplex) for the seasoning.
    Kirk

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    #118141

    Deep
    Participant

    Kirk:
    Yea , Actually we have all kind of spices and all that stuff for making the seasoning. We will be changing the composition.

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    #118142

    BTDT
    Participant

    This sounds like a job for Bruce at Maple Leaf Foods. He’s a great SS guy and loves DOE.
    http://www.mapleleaf.com/Investor/Bio/BRUCEMIYASHITA.aspx
    BTDT

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    #118144

    John Noguera
    Participant

    Deep,
    In addition to the previous poster’s comments on Likert and controlling the environmemt variables, it is important that you block by taster or use a paired t-test to compare differences within taster and exclude taster to taster variability.
    Taste test labs also “calibrate” with standard samples. For example a diet cola test would use 3 standards: “low” sweetness, “mid” sweetness and “high” sweetness. ( This may not be feasible in your situation).  
     

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